The United States House of Representatives has voted for a full review of US-SA relations, but retired Colonel Chris Wyatt, the former Director of African Studies at the US Army War College, says he does not believe the US will remove South Africa from AGOA because it is really just a “soft power foreign policy tool to win us good favour, give us access to places”. However, he says that South Africa should be “warned” that its conduct is detrimental to US national security interests. “South Africa has been getting a free pass for several years,” he says, listing the reasons why South Africa does not even qualify for AGOA . “And you know what? The ANC is welcome to do what they want, but this is a gift. They’ve gotten this far with their lifelong commitment to the PLO, to Hamas, to Hezbollah, to Iran, to Russia, to Communist China.” Colonel Wyatt – who observed the recent elections in South Africa – says he doesn’t see the African National Congress “changing” – and doesn’t think there is anybody in any of the parties in the Government of National Unity (GNU) “that can actually influence” the party to change its foreign policies.
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Highlights from the Interview
In an interview with Chris Steyn, Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt discusses several key issues, including the African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA), former President Donald Trump, and South Africa’s foreign policy. Wyatt emphasizes the importance of AGOA in fostering trade between the United States and African countries, noting its role in supporting economic development across the continent. He argues that despite China’s unfair trade practices, the U.S. should focus on competing by investing in Africa, leveraging programs like AGOA to build stronger economic ties.
Turning to U.S. politics, Wyatt reflects on the Trump-Biden debate, describing it as uninspiring and a poor reflection of American political discourse. He shares his personal experience of falling asleep during the debate, underscoring his disappointment with both candidates. Despite not liking Trump, Wyatt reveals he has voted for him twice and plans to do so again, citing the lack of better options.
Regarding South Africa’s foreign policy, Wyatt comments on the country’s geopolitical strategies, particularly in relation to China and the U.S. He criticizes the political establishments in various countries, including South Africa, for prioritizing political power over genuine public service. Wyatt concludes with a call for leadership that focuses on improving lives and ensuring global stability.
Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:11:13 – 00:00:26:06
Chris Steyn:
The United States House of Representatives has voted for a full review of US relations. We speak to retired Colonel Chris Wyatt, the former director of African studies at the US Army War College. Welcome, Colonel.
00:00:26:12 – 00:00:30:23
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
Well, thank you very much, Chris. It’s a pleasure to be here. And boy, what an interesting topic to discuss.
00:00:31:01 – 00:00:41:06
Chris Steyn:
Absolutely. Do you foresee major changes to US policy towards South Africa if Trump returns to the White House, and even if he doesn’t?
00:00:41:08 – 00:01:01:22
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
Well, to be fair, I think there should be a major review of US-South African relations. South Africa has not worked at all in the interest of US foreign policy and our international interests, our national security, and also it’s made itself ineligible for the Growth Opportunity Act. So I think it’s warranted to look at it. I’m not saying we should sanction South Africa or punish them, but I think it’s something that needs to be discussed.
00:01:02:00 – 00:01:21:00
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
However, I don’t honestly think much is going to happen. When this first came up a short while ago, what was going on is that, I believe a lot of people were electioneering. It’s an election year in the States. They’re looking for topics to be on top of, because Israel is in the news due to South Africa’s position on the situation with Gaza.
00:01:21:02 – 00:01:46:12
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
It puts South Africa in the headlines. And I think people running for Congress were looking for votes and attention, particularly from certain constituencies, mostly Republican. However, this bill has now been attached to another bill in June, and it has gone through the House of Representatives. And 61 Democrats signed on to this. Now, they probably realize it’s not going to be passed in the Senate as it sits right now with a Democratic majority of one.
00:01:46:14 – 00:02:06:02
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
So they probably figured no harm, no foul. We can get away with this. We will vote for it. We’ll look good for our voters and nothing will happen. So I don’t think anything is going to happen in this Congress. However, in the next Congress, something could happen. But to be quite honest, if Trump does become the president again, there is so much that the country needs to address that South Africa, frankly, isn’t going to rise to the level.
00:02:06:06 – 00:02:27:00
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
And I think this will disappear because it’s an election year issue. People are using foreign policy to make an election point, and I think it goes away. It doesn’t matter what South Africa does, no matter how many times South Africa pokes the United States in the eye over its foreign policy, we still give South Africa billions of dollars, and we keep hundreds of thousands, millions of South Africans from dying from HIV.
00:02:27:00 – 00:02:38:11
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
And we fund their telecommunications industry and so much more. So I honestly don’t think that in the end, anything significant is going to change, whether it’s a Democrat or Republican sitting in Washington DC come January.
00:02:38:12 – 00:02:45:18
Chris Steyn:
So you don’t think that the African National Congress’s foreign policy has irreparably damaged Agoa?
00:02:45:20 – 00:03:05:12
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
No, I don’t. In fact, in my view, South Africa has been getting a free pass for several years. South Africa does not qualify for Agoa based on a number of things. In fact, I’ve looked at the legislation, I looked it up here and let me point out four things where South Africa fails to meet eligibility requirements for Agoa. Number one, you have to have a market-based economy that protects property rights for men and women.
00:03:05:13 – 00:03:29:00
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
Well, the introduction of the expropriation without compensation legislation into Parliament in 2018 abrogated that responsibility. You are not protecting property rights if you’re expropriating property without compensation, that arguably makes you ineligible, number one. Number two, the government must minimize interference in the economy through measures such as price controls, subsidies, and government ownership of economic assets. Shall we run through the list?
00:03:29:00 – 00:03:48:05
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
Airports Company South Africa, Transnet, South African Airways, the list goes on. Eskom, this is government-controlled economy and the government has gone the opposite direction. South Africa has not diminished government interference in state enterprises. It’s actually increasing them. And so that’s a problem. Technically, that makes you ineligible. Elimination of barriers. The United States Trade and Investment.
00:03:48:05 – 00:04:06:12
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
South Africa has attacked us over poultry exports to South Africa, claiming we’re dumping products. They’re putting a 75% tariff on our poultry products because our poultry industry is far more competitive than South Africa’s. I know that hurts. As a former farmer, I know that hurts the feelings of some people in the agriculture industry, but quite simply, it’s a fact.
00:04:06:12 – 00:04:28:01
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
Our poultry industry is exponentially larger and produces things much cheaper, even with shipping to Africa. So the tariffs violate that. And then finally here, does not engage in activities that undermine United States national security or foreign policy interests. South Africa’s relationship with communist China, its relationship with Syria, its relationship with Iran, its relationship with Russia all jeopardize that.
00:04:28:01 – 00:04:49:20
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
And all are points that could be used to remove South Africa from Agoa. But I don’t think South Africa will be taken off Agoa. The two-way trade is about $2.025 billion per year. We’re still South Africa’s second-largest trading partner, and South Africa benefits from that. Most of the benefit from that trade is we have a trade deficit with South Africa, and most of that benefit creates jobs and brings money to South Africa.
00:04:49:22 – 00:05:09:12
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
So I don’t think that we’re going to get rid of it because Agoa is really just a foreign policy tool to win us good favor, give us access to places. And for it’s a soft power tool. I don’t think South Africa will be removed from Agoa, but I think South Africa should be warned that their conduct is detrimental to our national security interests.
00:05:09:12 – 00:05:27:17
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
And you know what? The ANC is welcome to do what they want, but this is a gift. We give South Africa duty-free access to our market, and we get nothing in return. And all we ask for is good governance. And we’re not getting that. So I think that it’s warranted. But I seriously doubt that South Africa will be taken out of Agoa even with Trump in office.
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00:05:27:17 – 00:05:41:16
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt:
He didn’t take South Africa out of Agoa before, and all these things were happening before. The only major change has been the Gaza case and of course, Russia’s invasion. But all the rest of this stuff was already on the table the whole time Trump was president and we didn’t take South Africa out of Agoa.
Chris Steyn
Now, Colonel, you were in South Africa recently. You witnessed the elections. What is your take on the outcome?
00:05:49:12 – 00:06:04:07
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Well, it was fascinating. I tell you what, I passed up a job opportunity. I had a very lucrative job offer to go to Portugal and work for NATO as an analyst. And, I actually turned it down because it was more important for me to observe South Africa’s elections. Now, I wasn’t an official observer. Let’s get that out of the way, case.
00:06:04:09 – 00:06:22:04
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Like, but I was there as a journalist, didn’t interfere with voters. But I did interview people after they voted, and I observed polling stations from the outside. I’m also a judge of elections here locally and in Pennsylvania. And what I can tell you is someone that actually runs the polling stations is that I visited 12 polling stations in South Africa on Election day.
00:06:22:07 – 00:06:44:08
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
I got there just in time the night before my flight was almost cancelled. I was like, I just made it. I got there and I was in the Western Cape because I couldn’t get up the hotel, which was my original plan. So it would work fine to be in the Western Cape. I started Somerset West and then I went to five polling stations in Khayelitsha and from there I went to Manenburg, then Rondebosch, Sea Point, Parklands, Woodbridge Primary, and Table View.
00:06:44:08 – 00:07:06:14
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Excuse me. What I can tell you is that it was a very uneven performance, at least in the Western Cape. It’s clear to me that election officials were not properly trained in some polling locations by the IEC, or the people running the polling stations were not very good at their job. At Somerset West in the morning, 9:45, first place that I rocked up at to observe there were 850 people waiting to vote.
00:07:06:16 – 00:07:26:04
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
So shortly after that the IEC put out a message, I think, on Twitter, saying that it’s going to be a large turnout. We’re expecting 70% today based on what’s going on. That was misleading. What was going on is that polling stations weren’t properly prepared. Now, I understand that polling station, if you’re over the age of 60 or if you’re pregnant or you have a child in a pram, you’re supposed to be taken to the front of the queue.
00:07:26:06 – 00:07:44:13
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
And most polling stations I went to, that wasn’t the case. Only in Woodbridge Primary, Sea Point, and a couple of stations in Khayelitsha, which, by the way, were run very well, very well. I mean, people didn’t have to wait long queues. People were well-behaved. The electioneering that was going on was done a safe distance away.
00:07:44:15 – 00:08:03:02
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
So I have to compliment people on that. But, in most stations, that wasn’t happening. The worst, most egregious one I saw was Table View. I went there at about 9:00 in the evening just before the polls closed. And there were at least 1,400 people waiting to vote. I walked down the street where there were no lights. The lights were out, not because of load shedding, but just because there were no lights there. I walked to the front of the building, and a couple came out and I spoke to them, and I said, how’d it go? How was your experience? And the lady said it was great, except I wish someone would have told us we could come to the front of the queue.
00:08:03:02 – 00:08:15:14
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
We sat here waiting forever, but no one was working. By contrast, at Woodbridge Primary, not too far from there, there were election poll workers who came outside when people were outside to ensure that people were getting their questions answered, they were in the right queue if they were elderly or disabled, and taken to the front of the queue, which was brilliant.
00:08:15:15 – 00:08:34:16
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
That’s what you’re supposed to do. And so I would say that the performance of the IEC was uneven. As far as the conduct, everything I saw in the Western Cape was above board. Everybody from every political party was well-behaved. Azania, DA, UIM, EFF, everybody was. And I congratulate South Africa on a fantastic election. At the same time, and this may not go over well and I’ll get castigated for this, but I’m going to admonish the South Africans for not getting off their bum and going and voting.
00:09:00:03 – 00:09:14:15
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
There was no excuse not to vote. The turnout was abysmally poor, and that actually helps smaller parties. And that’s why we have a government of national unity. 4 million ANC voters didn’t show up. I don’t have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with people not voting, so I’ll just leave it at that.
Chris Steyn
Well, do you think the smaller parties in the new government of national unity could have a significant influence on foreign policy, particularly when it comes to Israel, Gaza, Russia, and Ukraine?
00:09:29:09 – 00:09:49:16
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Well, I think that’s a very good question. And I would argue if, in fact, the Democratic Alliance, which is wildly underrepresented in this governing national unity, they have a third of the power of a government, national unity, yet they only have 19% of the ministries and the entire security cluster, the foreign policy cluster, policing, military intelligence, all are still under the control of the ANC.
00:09:49:18 – 00:10:10:04
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Arguably, the DA got only a handful of ministries who actually have any significance on South African society. If the DA had gotten, say, one or two other ministries of great importance, in my view, I think they might have been in a position where it shows that the ANC is humble, that they’re working together. But I see no humility in the African National Congress.
00:10:10:04 – 00:10:29:09
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Just look at Gauteng. No humility whatsoever. Panyaza Lesufi’s government is a joke. Nationally, the ANC is still just arrogant. They still think that they should rule until the rapture when everything ends. And I don’t see any real changes coming that are apparent now, maybe as a consequence of working together in this cabinet.
00:10:29:09 – 00:10:52:09
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
Maybe so. Ramaphosa and the ANC’s NEC will soften their position, but I seriously doubt it. They’ve gotten this far with their lifelong commitment to the PLO, to Hamas, to Iran, to Russia, to Communist China. I don’t see the ANC changing, and there’s no one in a position in any of the parties in the government who can actually, in my view, influence them and change their foreign policy.
00:10:52:09 – 00:10:53:19
Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt
So I don’t see any changes coming.
00:10:53:21 – 00:11:03:17 Chris Steyn How do you think South Africa will ever be in a position that it can turn around to America and say, we don’t need you, we have China, we have Russia, we have BRICS?
00:11:03:19 – 00:11:26:11 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt Well, South Africa is welcome to do that now. I mean, but it will cost you 700,000 jobs. So if the ANC government wants to do that, they can. But honestly, I don’t think that can happen. People talk about self-reliance and we can do this, but these people are living in a world of the 1960s and 70s when you could arguably do that in some ways.
00:11:26:11 – 00:11:45:17 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt But the world is just too interconnected in this day and age, whether people like it or not. I mean, whether I like it or not, we are dependent on global trade, even though it’s a small percentage of our gross domestic product here in America. But other countries, like South Africa, countries in Africa, European countries, especially Japan and China, are wholly dependent on their trade and the interaction of trade of goods and services.
00:11:45:17 – 00:12:03:05 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt So I don’t think South Africa can successfully go alone. I mean, take a look at your IT sector, take a look at your telecommunication sector, take a look at a lot of what’s going on in South Africa. If it wasn’t for American companies, 600 of them based there, many of them playing a key role in what’s happening, you’d be in bad shape.
00:12:03:08 – 00:12:20:01 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt China can’t replicate all that, and people think they can. Good luck with that. But, you know, relations with China come with a cost. When I worked at the African Union, I cautioned people I’d meet with. We were having conversations about peacekeeping operations in the Central African Republic or doing Ebola relief for the Mano River region.
00:12:20:03 – 00:12:33:15 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt And I’d invite them to a coffee shop, and they’d say, no, let’s talk over here at the AU building. Like, why? Do you want Beijing to hear everything we’re talking about? They laughed at me. I said, you do realize the building is full of listening devices and cameras? They said, oh, it’s not. Then a few years after that, of course, it was exposed.
00:12:33:15 – 00:12:56:02 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt Probably the Chinese who built the AU building loaded it with listening devices and cameras. And so the AU diplomats realized, oh, we’re not having private conversations now. People ask, so what does that matter? Well, when you negotiate and you go into a conversation with another party, you have to have cards you can keep to yourself. If you don’t have cards to keep to yourself and know what your negotiating position is, you have a problem.
00:12:56:02 – 00:13:10:20 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt If your opponent knows exactly what position you’re in, if they know you’re in a position of weakness, you can’t bluff them if they know you have no cards to stand on. And so that’s a real problem. But yeah, South Africa, if they want to try to go along without the U.S., they’re welcome to do it. But it’s just not going to work in today’s modern world.
00:13:11:00 – 00:13:24:20 Chris Steyn As an Africa expert, you have probably seen the influence of the West waning on the African continent. How do you see this role for Africa between the superpowers playing out?
00:13:24:22 – 00:13:43:05 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt Well, that’s a really good question, Chris. Thank you for that one. First off, I’m not one that buys into this war. First off, Washington, London, and Paris really don’t care about Africa in the big scheme of things. I mean, I don’t mean to hurt people’s feelings. I think, you know, Chris, I have a great affection for Africa. I’ve lived all over the continent, worked in 30 countries, and lived in eight of them.
00:13:43:06 – 00:14:03:03 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt But the reality is that Africa does not rise to geostrategic importance on almost any issue at any time for these countries. And as far as the so-called war, you know, we’ve heard this for years coming out of the DC establishment. And I know because I was in embassies all over Africa working with the State Department, the Defense Department, and all of our actors.
00:14:03:05 – 00:14:24:00 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt And I constantly hear about China in Africa, China in Africa, and China. No, China has been in Africa since 1956. Okay, wake up folks. The difference is that since the United States foolishly sponsored their entry into the World Trade Organization under Bill Clinton in 2000, and they consequently violated every World Trade Organization rule with no consequences, China has become a significant actor. Prior to that, the country was a joke.
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00:14:24:01 – 00:14:43:05 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt You know, a billion people, just a $4 billion economy. Now they’re approaching $20 trillion. That’s a significant actor. So China’s always been there. The difference is the scale. And to me, this approach that people are taking is a Cold War, wrongheaded approach. It’s not a zero-sum game.
00:14:43:07 – 00:15:00:09 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt You know, you get this from leftists all the time who love socialism and communism. Well, you know, the pie is only this big. There are six slices. No, if that were the case, then why do we create trillions of dollars of wealth from e-commerce? How did that even happen? There’s no magical little mines of e-commerce.
00:15:00:09 – 00:15:23:22 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt It’s people’s ideas and software and connections that link things, improve efficiencies, make e-commerce possible, and improve trade. So it’s just for me, this whole concept of a war for Africa, I think, is misstated. There really isn’t a war as far as a war for Africa. We’ve lost. China has won if you look at it that way. We’ve lost China’s influence all over the continent.
00:15:23:22 – 00:15:47:05 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt They’re gaining influence, and the U.S. is losing influence. Now for the past 15 or 20 years, our influence was heavily impacted by our national security interests and working with partners in Africa for counterterrorism and training, equipping African militaries. But the Chinese are also in that field, and they’re growing in that field. So I think it’s wrongheaded to take the approach by our foreign policy establishment that it’s a conflict.
00:15:47:07 – 00:16:11:15 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt We can argue that China competes unfairly, which is true. They break laws, they engage in bribery, they steal intellectual property, and things like that. Absolutely. There are trade barriers. All that’s true. But we should not be competing with China for Africa; we should be competing in Africa too. One of the reasons why, when I retired from active duty a couple of years ago, I started a consultancy was because I wanted to get American companies to invest in Africa.
00:16:11:15 – 00:16:34:04 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt A rising tide lifts all boats. Well, the problem is big American brands, outside of ones like John Deere, Caterpillar, Microsoft, and Google. Outside those major manufacturers and Ford, you don’t see American products. Can you tell me, Chris, have you ever seen self-serve mobile phone service from Verizon in Africa or satellite service from DirecTV? These are American brands that aren’t there; some of our consumer brands are there.
00:16:34:04 – 00:16:55:09 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt But my point is that American brands should go to Africa and compete for African business. By 2050, Africa will have 2.3 to 2.5 billion people, even with all the people leaving the continent. That represents a consumer market of over 900 million people with disposable income. By my own estimation, the United States’ total population is 330 million.
00:16:55:09 – 00:17:14:15 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt We only have 250 million consumers. Imagine a marketplace where we can sell our goods and services to 900 million people. People not paying attention to that are not paying attention. So I think this conflict over Africa is overstated. And it’s done for political purposes on both sides—in Beijing and Moscow, and in Washington—all for political purposes.
00:17:14:17 – 00:17:20:01 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt And it’s kind of like the BRICS thing. But we could get into that if you have time. I’m not sure if we have time today.
00:17:20:03 – 00:17:46:18 Chris Steyn That is a topic for another interview. It will take up 20 minutes at least. May we go to your election? Having survived our own, many South Africans were riveted to the Trump-Biden debate and to Biden’s recent public performances. What is your take on that?
00:17:46:19 – 00:18:04:17 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt There was a debate? I’m sorry, I turned it on. I just got back from South Africa. I put it on the television and frankly fell asleep within five minutes. Honestly, that’s a fact. I woke up at 2 a.m. Of course, that makes sense because it’s 8 a.m. in South Africa for me. So I woke up at 2 a.m. and it was still on replaying, and I watched it.
00:18:04:17 – 00:18:20:07 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt Now, this wasn’t a debate. This was a sad argument for elder care. And maybe for both of us, to be honest. Neither one was impressive. In the interest of full disclosure, I don’t like Donald Trump, but I voted for him twice, and I will vote for him again in November, given the options that I had in front of me.
00:18:20:09 – 00:18:42:14 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt But I wasn’t impressed by either one of them in this debate. It wasn’t a debate; it was just sad. And it’s really unfortunate that people in the political establishment will gaslight people just to achieve craven political power. And that’s the problem we all have. You can see that in the arrogance of the ANC, the Republicans and Democrats, the Tories, Labour, the CDU, the SPD in Germany—it doesn’t matter.
00:18:42:16 – 00:19:02:09 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt Macron in France, the arrogance of political people. You know, I ran for office recently, Chris, and lost badly. And in that loss—thank you—I did a radio interview, and I said that politicians in office and those seeking office should not be doing so for craven political power, self-aggrandizement, or self-enrichment.
00:19:02:11 – 00:19:23:00 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt But quite frankly, I’d say 80% of the people serving in office, whether it’s in South Africa, Berlin, or Washington, do this for craven political power, self-aggrandizement, and self-enrichment. And that’s heartbreaking because people are suffering, people are hurting. And it’s our job as leaders to make life better, make the world work, and make it safe for everybody.
00:19:23:00 – 00:19:24:00 Colonel (Ret) Chris Wyatt And that’s what frustrates me.
00:19:24:02 – 00:19:36:00 Chris Steyn Thank you. That was retired Colonel Chris Wyatt, the former director of African studies at the US Army War College, speaking to this news. Thank you, Colonel, and I’m Chris Steyn.
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