CR doesn’t even know where the Guptas are… – Glynnis Breytenbach

President Cyril Ramaphosa does not even know where the Guptas are. That is the riposte from Glynnis Breytenbach, the Democratic Alliance’s Shadow Minister of Justice, to the National Prosecuting Authority (NP) calling in the help of the President to try and fast track the extradition from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) of the Guptas. As for the few billion of State Capture loot recovered so far by the NPA, Breytenbach says “it’s not even a drop in the ocean of the trillions and trillions and trillions of rands that we were robbed of – and that government officials and cabinet members assisted crooks to steal from us”. She calls the close to 700 government officials thus far convicted of corruption “petty thieves” – and says “we need to see people at the top of the scale who stole at a breathtaking pace, held to account”. She also gives an update on the proposed establishment of DA-driven Anti Corruption Commission where prosecutors will have “no fear that their work will be undone by a bunch of politicians who don’t like being held accountable”.

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Summary of the interview with Glynnis Breytenbach

Glynnis Breytenbach, Shadow Minister of Justice for the Democratic Alliance, discusses the challenge of extraditing the Gupta family, central figures in South Africa’s State Capture scandal. Despite efforts, their whereabouts remain unknown, complicating extradition attempts. Breytenbach highlights the failure of extradition attempts and the lack of communication regarding their status. While the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) boasts asset recovery and convictions of government officials, Breytenbach emphasises that these efforts are inadequate compared to the scale of corruption. She criticizes the slow progress and limited resources of the NPA, proposing a Constitutional amendment to establish a specialized anti-corruption commission. Breytenbach stresses the need for independence and resources to combat grand corruption effectively. She questions the political will of the ruling African National Congress (ANC) and advocates for a robust, independent commission with secure tenure. Breytenbach concludes by outlining the process and timeline for establishing the Anti-Corruption Commission, expressing determination to push the initiative forward. The discussion underscores the urgency of addressing corruption at the highest levels in South Africa.

Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___

Chris Steyn (00:03.788)

Where are the Guptas? That sentence has become synonymous with State Capture in South Africa. We speak to Glynnis Breytenbach, the Democratic Alliance’s Shadow Minister of Justice. and Correctional Services. Hi, Glynnis.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (00:18.894)

How are you?

Chris Steyn (00:20.748)

Fine, thank you. I see the National Prosecuting Authority has called in the help of President Cyril Ramaphosa to try and fast track the extradition from the United Arab Emirates of the Guptas. OK. Yeah, what’s your take on that?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (00:33.454)

Yeah, right.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (00:38.574)

Well, in the National Prosecuting Authority of South Africa, you and I and President Ramaphosa and the rest of South Africa have no idea where the Guptas are. We don’t know where they are. So I don’t see the point in continuing to harangue the United Arab Emirates about whether they are going to extradite them or not if we don’t know where they are. That’s not how extraditions work. How extraditions work is you have to know where they are. And then you apply for extradition there where they are. And that’s what they did. And it was a failure. They were not extradited. And they weren’t even told that they weren’t going to be extradited. They just…months went by until we learned from, again, civil society that the Guptas have been seen running around Dubai. Now we know that the extradition failed. And nobody told us. The NPA say they weren’t told. The minister’s office says he wasn’t told.

Chris Steyn (01:16.844)

Not so long ago. Sorry, not so long ago, I interviewed.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (01:38.222)

I find that really hard to believe, but if they say so, one must believe it. But they don’t know where they are, and the minister also doesn’t know where they are. And certainly, Mr. Ramaphosa doesn’t know where they are. So, you know, I don’t see the point in this. We need to find out where they are. It’s unlikely they’re still in the United Arab Emirates.

Chris Steyn (01:59.116)

Yeah, and the minister’s visit to UAE also didn’t produce any…

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (02:03.886)

His constant visits to the UAE to allegedly go and look for the Guptas. Yes, have produced nothing.

Chris Steyn (02:13.772)

So meanwhile, the NPA says it has restrained and preserved what 14 billion of State Capture assets and has recovered 6 billion. But we’re talking trillions here.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (02:27.342)

Yeah, you know, I see that the National Director in a press conference yesterday says that it creates all sorts of pride that they’ve managed to recoup six billion and freeze 14 billion or however much. Yes, I’m very pleased that that function is working, that they have managed to freeze monies that are ill-gotten gains, that they’ve recouped billions that are ill-gotten gains, but as you say, it’s not even a drop in the ocean of the trillions and trillions and trillions of rands that we were robbed of – and that government officials and cabinet members assisted crooks to steal from us. And that money, some of it found its way into their pockets. And a lot more than the six billion or the 14 billion that we’re talking about. So, yes. Is it good news? Yes. Of course it’s good news. Yes. Have they succeeded there? Yes, they have. Wonderful. Very happy that they’re doing that. But it’s not even close to enough. In the bigger scheme of things, it’s meaningless.

Chris Steyn (03:41.58)

Now, it also boasts that almost 700 government officials have been convicted of corruption, but these are the sardines, surely not. Where are the big fish?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (03:50.35)

These are minnows, yes, you’re quite right. And they are people that would have been convicted in any event. They’re petty thieves who would have been caught in the general scheme of things, in the general course of the work of the Hawks or the Commercial Branch, prosecuted in the general scheme of things, because that’s the job of the National Prosecuting Authority, to prosecute people, and convict them. And yes, everybody acknowledges, myself included, every day that there are thousands of, well not thousands, just over 2,000, I think, prosecutors in the NPA, who go to work every day and do their very best. I accept that. And thank God for them. They go every day under constantly worsening conditions and do their very best. And they do. They convict people of housebreaking, robbery, assault, assault, GBH, murder, rape, and corruption. Yes. That’s their job, the National Prosecuting Authority.

But we sit here with a much bigger problem and we all know it. The elephant in the room is State Capture. The elephant in the room is grand corruption on a scale that is breathtaking. And those people have not been held to account. None of them. Not even one. And so, of course they are doing their everyday work. But frankly, that’s their job and they’re being paid to do it. And am I happy they’re doing it? Absolutely. Do I? Do I acknowledge the fact that they do it without a doubt? They do it every day, and I see daily the steadily worsening conditions under which the police, the prosecution, the judiciary are forced to conduct their business. So, that they’re getting anything done at all is a miracle. Well done to them. They deserve those successes.

But the difficulty is we’re not seeing any State Capture prosecutions or convictions. And that’s what we need to see. We need to see people at the top of the scale who stole at a breathtaking pace, held to account. And that isn’t what’s happening here.

Chris Steyn (05:59.98)

And at the snail space that they are working and with limited resources, what are the realistic prospects of the NPA alone getting those big guys into the dock?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (06:10.126)

In my view, as we currently stand, none. The NPA has a paucity of resources, both human and financial. They have a paucity of experience. This we know. It’s as a result of many things. Natural attrition, people unfortunately die, people retire, people leave and move on for better salaries elsewhere. Better working conditions are not hard to find. And so people leave.

The people who have stayed – thank the good Lord for them, that they’re doing their very best, again, under trying circumstances, without a doubt. But there’s insufficient experience in the NPA to deal with the deluge of state capture cases that require attention. There are people in the NPA with a lot of experience who are perfectly capable of prosecuting these cases. But there are so few of them that they can’t deal with this river of corruption.

And for that very reason, we have, the DA has proposed a piece of legislation to introduce an amendment to the Constitution which will allow the setting up of a Chapter 9 institution to deal solely with grand scale corruption, grand scale organised crime, to allow the NPA, allow them the freedom of movement to make space for them to deal with these matters that they are forced to deal with on a daily basis, because that’s their job. And take away this terrible pressure and burden from them of trying to also deal with State Capture, with grand corruption, with huge scale organised crime, while still being expected to do all this other work. It’s simply too much.

Chris Steyn (07:43.788)

I was just –

Chris Steyn (08:02.444)

I was just going to ask you what progress has been made with the establishment of the Anti Corruption Commission that can work alongside the NPA and get the super looters into the dock.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (08:12.974)

Well, it has been, it was gazetted last week. The proposed legislation was gazetted last week, so it’s out for public comment. It will be introduced within the first 100 days of the establishment of the seventh Parliament. And then, you know, it will run its course. There’s no reason why it should take very long. I can’t imagine that anybody won’t support it. In a country driven with grand corruption and the most horrible affliction of organised crime that we are, one can scarcely oppose any attempts to improve that condition. So I sincerely hope that it will enjoy support.

Chris Steyn (08:56.844)

Until then, have you sensed any political will from the ruling African National Congress to hold the looters to account?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (09:04.078)

Yes, they’ll tell you that they introduced what’s colloquially known as the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Act, or the Prosecuting Authority Act, the amendment to formalise the establishment of the Investigating Directorate, so to make it a permanent feature within the NPA, as opposed to a proclamation as it was initially. So it’s a permanent feature, in my view, and it’s an argument that we’ve had all along and will continue to have: That doesn’t answer the problems that we’re facing because, as we saw with the Scorpions, which was housed inside the NPA as the ID is, that as soon as it became uncomfortable, as soon as they started biting the hand that fed them, they were disbanded with glee and with ease. Because all it requires is a simple majority in parliament. 50 % plus one. If they’re serious about corruption, if they honestly want to address corruption, if they honestly want to make inroads into State Capture, holding those people to account, and putting an end to grand scale corruption and organised crime, then we need a body that can bite and has security of tenure, that has true, true, true independence, that is not dependent on political whimsicalness for its existence.

If you have a Chapter 9 institution that requires a two-thirds majority in parliament. No political party is ever going to smell that again in this country. So it would have security of tenure, it would take serious political will to disband it. I don’t think it can happen. It will give the kind of independence, the kind of security of tenure that will attract the very best because they know that they’ll be able to do their jobs with dignity, with honour, but also with independence. That they can go after whomsoever and have no fear that their work will be undone by a bunch of politicians who don’t like being held accountable.

Chris Steyn (11:16.076)

If everything goes according to plan, how soon could the Anti Corruption Commission be established and get working?

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (11:21.902)

Well, it will depend. Of course, it’s not an overnight thing. It’s a big endeavour. The legislation needs to work its way through parliament. That takes time. A constitutional amendment is no laughing matter. That needs to be dealt with and then agreed to in Parliament. Then the commission has to be set up. First, the structure has to be sorted out. We have a very good idea of how we’d like it to look. And we have a very good idea of how we would staff it, but it needs to be populated. We need to have people of sufficient ability and experience to do the investigative work, to do the prosecutorial work, to do the forensic analysis work. And of course, you need to negotiate a budget from Treasury. But as I say, it will be introduced within the first 100 days, and we’ll push it as hard as we can.

Chris Steyn (12:19.244)

Thank you. That was Glynnis Breytenbach of the Democratic Alliance speaking to BizNews about the elusive Guptas and giving us an update on the establishment of Anti Corruption Commission to go after super looters. Thank you, Glynnis. I’m Chris Steyn.

GLYNNIS BREYTENBACH (12:36.014)

Bye. Ciao.