The African National Congress (ANC) has acted like “they’re powerful players on the African stage”, but South Africa “really irritates most” other African countries because “they’re always sticking their noses in everywhere”. So says the former Director of African Studies at the U.S. Army War College, retired Colonel Chris Wyatt, who witnessed the intense dislike for Nkosazana Dlamini Zuma after she was “forced on” the African Union as chairperson. “She went up there and her arrogance…and the distaste people had for her was pretty palpable when I was in Addis Ababa. She was less popular than syphilis.” Commenting on this year’s spate of deaths of SANDF soldiers in the DRC, he says: “They’re like lambs sent to the slaughter. They’re being sent there with insufficient resources, improper medevac, no air support, insufficient logistics. It’s something that South Africa should not be involved in, but it’s all part of the egotistical foreign policy of the African National Congress…” He warns that the SA force is going to find itself “increasingly vulnerable to M23 and about a hundred other rebel groups who have all their own agendas and most of its criminal”. Colonel Wyatt also dissects the “war” between the DRC and Rwanda and explains why President Paul Kagame’s welcome mat in the US is “wearing thin”.
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Highlights from the interview
In an interview with Chris Steyn, retired Colonel Chris Wyatt discussed South Africa’s extensive involvement in various African countries, including Côte d’Ivoire, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, Uganda, Burundi, and the DRC. Wyatt questioned the benefits South Africa gains from these engagements, suggesting that the country’s involvement seems to be more about the ANC’s desire to project itself as a significant player on the African stage rather than any tangible gains.
Wyatt highlighted the substantial financial and human costs, mentioning that the South African government has budgeted over 2 billion rand for operations in the DRC, with 900 million rand spent in six months. He argued that this expenditure does not benefit ordinary South Africans, who face numerous domestic challenges, including inadequate educational resources and infrastructure.
Furthermore, Wyatt criticized South Africa’s military presence in the DRC, noting that replacing UN troops with South African forces has left them vulnerable to various rebel groups. He emphasized that the conflict in the DRC is complex and deeply rooted, and South Africa’s involvement is unlikely to bring about significant change.
Wyatt concluded by asserting that South Africa should focus on addressing its internal issues and improving the lives of its citizens rather than engaging in costly and arguably ineffective foreign interventions.
Extended transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:11:15 – 00:00:25:17
Chris Steyn:
Nearly a dozen South African National Defense Force soldiers have died in the Democratic Republic of Congo this year. We speak to retired Colonel Chris Wyatt, the former director of African studies at the US Army War College. Welcome, Colonel.
00:00:25:22 – 00:00:39:14
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Well, thank you, Chris. It’s a pleasure to be back. And what an interesting topic. Once again, we seem to… I really appreciate the topics you keep asking me to talk about. They’re all fascinating. And this one, talking about the South African Defense Force in the Democratic Republic of Congo, I think it’s a timely topic to discuss.
00:00:39:16 – 00:00:55:15
Chris Steyn:
Well, I would like to know, as I’m sure you have a very good idea. What is South Africa really doing there? Why is it in South Africa’s interest to be there and have its soldiers slaughtered without logistical support?
00:00:55:17 – 00:01:12:06
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Well, it’s a fair question. Why is South Africa in the DRC? Now, I’m not going to say this is the case, but I’m going to give an example of why others have been there just to frame this. So we go back to when the government in the 1990s was overthrown, with the movement coming out of the east, they moved across the country.
00:01:12:06 – 00:01:36:22
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Laurent Kabila came across and there was all kinds of devastation. He took over, overthrew the government, and became in charge of the Democratic Republic of Congo, a country that’s not democratic. It’s not really a republic, but it is the Congo, we’ll give it that. So, he took over. And then the conflict after Rwanda’s genocide spilled over and stayed in the east, in Kivu in particular.
00:01:36:22 – 00:01:58:02
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
That part of the eastern part of the country. And that conflict was fueled for a long time. So we wound up getting a bunch of different countries that sent military deployments there, like Namibia. Namibia sent troops to the Congo, Zimbabwe sent troops to the Congo, and others. But those two in particular, the reason they sent troops there wasn’t to stabilize the government, although that was the claim.
00:01:58:04 – 00:02:24:05
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
The real reason they were there is that they were profiting from profiteering. The Namibian Defense Forces and Zimbabwe Defense Force were deeply involved in illicit extraction of minerals and diamonds and other things and making a fortune off it. And frankly, in his waning years, the later years of his time, 37 years in power in Zimbabwe, that’s how Mugabe was paying off his generals to keep them content and prevent what eventually became a bloodless coup in 2017 when he was pushed aside.
00:02:24:10 – 00:02:39:17
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But in the years before that, there was no money left because they pilfered the country and they couldn’t even pay soldiers’ salaries. So one way to take care of it was to let them go to the Congo, ostensibly for peacekeeping, but really for pilfering of minerals. And Namibia did the exact same thing. Now, I’m not making any claim that South Africans are doing that.
00:02:39:18 – 00:03:10:07
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
I don’t believe that’s what’s going on. There is and there has been throughout the history of South African Defense Force, SANDF troops in the Congo, incidences of criminal activity, soldiers selling their weapons, soldiers running prostitution rings, human slavery, things like that, selling uniforms, selling the rations and things like that meant for troops to local guerrillas and others. That does take place, and unfortunately, that does take place with a lot of militaries on so-called peacekeeping missions, which really are less about peace and more about presence.
00:03:10:09 – 00:03:30:00
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But the South African Defense Force has a long history in the DRC. They’ve been there for two decades. And, the question is why? And then we had two United Nations missions. We had MONUC, MONUSCO, and after two plus decades of United Nations participation in the eastern Congo, there isn’t peace. In fact, it’s just as deadly as it’s been for the past two decades.
00:03:30:02 – 00:03:48:21
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
So those forces have been withdrawing this year. Last year in December, the Southern African Development Community said, hey, we’re going to send a mission. Of course, South Africa is a major player in SADC, so they decided to send 5,000 troops from SADC to replace 20,000 troops from the U.N. I’m not good at math, but I think that’s a ratio of 4 to 1 in the wrong direction.
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00:03:48:23 – 00:04:10:20
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Maybe you should have sent 80,000 troops from somewhere instead of 5,000, but 5,000 troops… the commitment for South Africa is 2,900. To my knowledge, they haven’t achieved that yet. In no small measure because the SANDF is overcommitted. They have responsibilities all over, from guarding Eskom facilities against sabotage—that’s not a job for the military, but that’s something they’ve been doing—to also being involved in the election, playing a role there.
00:04:10:20 – 00:04:33:11
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
And that’s not something the military is supposed to be doing in elections. That’s pretty crazy. And then, of course, a mission that’s often overlooked, and I don’t know the current status of it because of the opaque nature of the Department of Defense in South Africa, they aren’t forthcoming on this publicly the way they used to be. But traditionally, South Africa’s army has had up to seven rifle companies patrolling the border with Zimbabwe, Mozambique, and Swaziland.
00:04:33:11 – 00:04:54:18
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Or Eswatini, to deter illegal immigration. But with the vast influx of illegal immigrants, you have to wonder if they are even on the border anymore. And when you have seven companies of infantry on the border, you have to realize in a proper military, that means you have 21 companies engaged, because seven companies are on operations, seven companies are rehearsing, preparing, getting ready and moving to the location.
00:04:54:18 – 00:05:13:17
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
And seven are in rest, on holiday, taking a break, that sort of thing. So that’s a huge commitment from the infantry battalions in South Africa, with three companies per battalion. That’s a lot of battalions. I don’t know that they’re doing that at this point. But the point is that the South African Defense Force is overstretched, overburdened, under-resourced, and, well, we’ll get into this in a moment.
00:05:13:17 – 00:05:31:00
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But they don’t even have the resources to do what they’re being asked to do in the Congo. So your comment earlier that if you use the word slaughter, I think you said slaughter. If you did not use the word slaughter, they’re like lambs sent to the slaughter. They’re being sent there with insufficient resources, improper medevac, no air support, insufficient logistics.
00:05:31:00 – 00:05:53:00
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
The South African government has to pay contractors to fly Russian aircraft to send resources up there. It’s something that South Africa should not be involved in. But it’s all part of the egotistical foreign policy of the African National Congress, all started by Nelson Mandela, you know, interfering in other African countries’ business. Of course, they have no problem complaining about America or China or someone else interfering in African countries’ business.
00:05:53:04 – 00:06:12:00
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But South Africa has its nose everywhere: Côte d’Ivoire, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, Uganda, Burundi, DRC, the list goes on and on, including the Central African Republic. So yeah, that’s why they are there. I guess we’ll get to that in a second here. I’ll give you a chance to get back in here. It’s your program. But why are they there?
00:06:12:02 – 00:06:16:21
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
What’s the squeeze? What are you getting? What’s the juice you’re getting for the squeeze? And I don’t think South Africa is getting much.
00:06:16:23 – 00:06:24:05
Chris Steyn:
I was going to ask you that. What is the cost versus the gain of South Africa’s involvement? They must be getting something.
00:06:24:11 – 00:06:39:17
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Well, the only thing I could possibly see they’re getting—I mean, again, I’m not going to make the accusation of getting anything like minerals because I don’t see any evidence of that, but I have seen it with others in the past—the only thing I possibly see is the ANC puffing their chests up like they’re world actors and powerful players on the African stage.
00:06:39:17 – 00:06:55:06
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But South Africa really irritates most other African countries. Chris, I’ve lived all over the continent. I’ve dealt with Africans in West Africa, North Africa, East Africa, Central Africa, South Africa, living in all these places, including working at the African Union. My last assignment in Africa in uniform was at the African Union, and my experience was that most Africans from other countries were not happy about South Africa.
00:06:55:06 – 00:07:16:20
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Remember, this was the time that the South Africans broke the mold about the Secretary for the African Union. The OAU and the African Union traditionally had always been led by not a regional hegemon: never Nigeria, never Algeria, never Kenya, never South Africa, all the way up until Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma was forced on the African Union. Her arrogance and the distaste people had for her were palpable. When I was in Addis Ababa, she was less popular than syphilis. I mean, she was never invited to anything unless they were forced to invite her for official purposes.
00:07:16:22 – 00:07:34:21
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
South Africa really irritates a lot of people across the continent. They’re always sticking their nose everywhere. So what are they getting out of this? It’s a good question. They’re not getting minerals. So it has to be the self-fulfilling prophecy of the ANC that they’re important, that they matter. Look, make no mistake, the conflict in the DRC is horrendous.
00:07:34:23 – 00:07:53:05
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But it’s decades old, and you’re replacing 20,000 UN troops with proper equipment, in many cases, with South African troops, Malawian troops who work really hard, by the way. And who’s the other one? There’s a third country that’s sending troops, and they’re sending them there with only 5,000 total. They’re not even at full strength now, and they’re only there on a short-term basis.
00:07:53:07 – 00:08:13:15
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
They’re supposed to withdraw by December. Well, the Congo is not going to be the land of milk and honey in December. That’s not going to end the conflict there. So what’s the purpose of it? It’s a stopgap measure because the East African Community has withdrawn their forces. The UN has been asked to leave, and the Security Council said, fine, we’ve had enough for two decades, so it doesn’t make any sense.
00:08:13:17 – 00:08:30:14
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
With the withdrawal of the EAC and the handoff to SADC, which has gone very poorly, and on top of that, the United Nations pulling out at the same time, the South African forces are going to find themselves increasingly vulnerable to M23 and about 100 other rebel groups who have all their own agendas. And most of it’s criminal. It’s not a good look.
00:08:30:14 – 00:09:02:13
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
It’s not a good thing. Lives are being wasted unnecessarily—not just South African lives, but civilian lives—because the South Africans have been accused of targeting civilians in one of the attacks about 30 km from Goma earlier this year. It’s a real mess, and I don’t see what they get out of it. That’s the human cost.
00:09:02:14 – 00:09:20:20
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
I mean, the South African government has budgeted over 2 billion rand for this operation, and they will spend over 900 million rand in the six months ending in December. So I really don’t see what they’re getting out of it. It’s not in the interest of South Africans. How does it further your interest? You’ve got kids in school who don’t have textbooks, who are using pit latrines.
00:09:21:02 – 00:09:40:12
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
You’ve got a mess in South Africa. You know, it’s time to focus on South Africa—make South Africa great again, or for once, or first, whatever the case is. But make South Africa great and let the DRC be handled. This is, in my view, Chris, a joke by SADC. SADC has had a number of interventions in the past, and this might be the motivation for why South Africa is doing it.
00:09:40:14 – 00:09:56:09
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
They’ve had a number of interventions in the Comoros. They’ve gone there repeatedly. They went into Lesotho back in the 1990s in Operation Boleas. That didn’t go particularly well for the South African forces, but it was new then after they amalgamated all the forces. So, you know, they’ve done a few of these interventions, and some have gone well.
00:09:56:11 – 00:10:13:09
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
So maybe SADC thinks it actually has some capability to pull this off. But SADC can never accomplish a mission if either South Africa, Botswana, or Angola are not involved. If you don’t get one of the three players involved, they can’t pull it off. And this time, South Africa is involved. So I don’t really know what the purpose of it was or why they’re there.
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00:10:13:15 – 00:10:28:17
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
I see no gain for ordinary South Africans. If you live in Alexandra, if you live in Kempton Park, if you live in Clifton, if you live in the Cape Flats, I see nothing for you in this, and I see nothing in this for South African soldiers. I feel for them.
00:10:28:22 – 00:10:44:17
Chris Steyn:
Well, meanwhile, the rebels seem to be in a more powerful position than ever before, and there are fears that there is a war brewing between Rwanda and the DRC. I don’t know if you agree with that, Chris, that it’s likely.
00:10:44:18 – 00:11:03:19
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Well, arguably, there’s been a war with Rwanda in the DRC since the 1990s. Kagame has been supporting rebels in eastern Congo for decades and getting away with it. And there were times that the rebels slid back and forth. And of course, the whole reason for me being involved in the DRC ostensibly is because they chased the genocidaires into the DRC in 1994.
00:11:03:19 – 00:11:22:06
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
And that’s true. That did happen. However, he’s been sticking his nose in the business here for a long time. Not exactly a democrat or, you know, a magnanimous leader or a benign leader. This is a man who just won reelection with 99.97% of the vote. Wow. I’ll tell you what, I like those odds. Let me run for president of Rwanda.
00:11:22:11 – 00:11:38:14
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
That’s pretty good. It’s a country that a lot of people hold up as an example of doing very well because it’s orderly, it’s clean. It’s a place you can do business legitimately without massive corruption. And there aren’t a lot of places like that, unfortunately, across the continent of Africa. So it’s held up as a shining star in many respects.
00:11:38:14 – 00:11:56:20
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
But when it comes to democracy, liberty, and freedoms, that’s not Rwanda. And a lot of people recognize that. Kagame’s welcome has been wearing thin for a decade. It’s getting increasingly thin here on this side of the Atlantic as people see him for the authoritarian ruler that he is. But you know what? In Africa and in many places around the world, people are okay with authoritarians.
00:11:56:22 – 00:12:24:02
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
As long as the streets are clean, they have water, and they can feed their families, they like authoritarians. And many Rwandans love Paul Kagame. And to be fair to the man, he and his guerrilla movement are the ones that overthrew the genocidaires and ended the horrific situation because the world sat by and watched. I remember that I was on alert orders to go to Rwanda as the genocide was occurring, and we were stopped by the Clinton administration because they were worried that if it was declared a genocide, what would it do for the midterm elections?
00:12:24:02 – 00:12:39:13
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Shameful, people. But, yeah, Kagame is involved. Arguably, they’re in the war. Just because there aren’t Rwandan troops across the border tonight doesn’t mean they’re not part of the war. Just like America’s involved in Ukraine. We’re in the Ukraine war. There may not be American troops, but there’s whatever, $200 billion of American treasuries down there.
00:12:39:15 – 00:13:03:01
Chris Steyn:
Judging by Kagame’s landslide victory, he’s even much more popular than his own party. And somehow he has seemed to have been able to get the best of both worlds. He defies the West when it comes to the DRC, but he maintains the support of the West. How does the US view him? You say support is waning a little on that side.
00:13:03:03 – 00:13:24:15
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
Well, for a number of years, Kagame was viewed in a very good light in the foreign policy establishment, in the military, national security folks here in the U.S. Not just in the U.S., but also in Western Europe as well, and through many corners of Africa, because they ended the genocide. They had elections, they held their equivalent of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission with their local trials, which for the most part weren’t simply revenge trials.
00:13:24:15 – 00:13:42:11
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
They actually tried people on a legitimate basis in these local community trials. So that set an example for the world to look at, and it seemed like they were on the right path. A lot of reasonable policies were put in place that were pro-business reforms. Corrupt officials were actually prosecuted and incarcerated for their actions.
00:13:42:13 – 00:14:01:03
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
So everyone was kind of the darling for a while. But we could see, not too long after they took over, just like Uganda, that things were not going to go great. It’s big man politics. And that’s why his welcome mat is wearing thin here in the United States. But the problem is, with so much conflict, so much chaos in that part of Africa, any stability gets rewarded.
00:14:01:03 – 00:14:18:19
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
And he got rewarded for what appeared to be a pro-democratic stance and for his pro free market capitalism. By and large, that really went over well for a long time. We saw the same thing with Yoweri Museveni, who came to power in 1986, by the way, with the help of Paul Kagame, who was part of the Ugandan rebels.
00:14:18:19 – 00:14:38:16
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
People forget that if you go to their engineer base in the southwest part of the country, which is the home area of Yoweri Museveni, you’ll find a statue. And on that statue, dedicated to the fighters who led an abortive attack in which only three of them had firearms, they attacked an army base as rebels. It was, of course, Yoweri Museveni who led that mission, and Paul Kagame, who was this intelligence guy right there with them.
00:14:38:18 – 00:15:09:15
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
So both of them got a free pass. But that all started to wear thin when Obama was president. Ironically, America’s first African-American president, Obama, got into a contest with Yoweri Museveni over homosexuality law, which exploded, and the relationship between the US and Museveni was poisoned and has never recovered with Uganda. Kagame is sitting in a boat now where he’s not because of homosexuality legislation, but because of the continuing conflict and this implausible 99% victory that a lot of people are beginning to question why we’re supporting him at all.
00:15:09:15 – 00:15:20:21
Colonel Chris Wyatt:
And so that welcome mat is wearing thin. I don’t know how much longer it will last, but to be honest, you know, when the world’s on fire and one place isn’t, sometimes that’s enough just to get you the support that you need.
00:15:21:00 – 00:15:34:22
Chris Steyn:
Thank you. That was retired Colonel Chris Wyatt speaking to BizNews about the SANDF’s involvement in the DRC, where almost a dozen soldiers have died this year. Thank you, Colonel. I’m Chris Steyn.
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