“Revolving Door” ministers & clueless spies can’t protect SA from the “worst of the worst”

South Africa spends billions on its intelligence services, but more and more questions are being raised about the quality of intelligence being gathered. BizNews speaks to the Democratic Alliance’s (DA’) Dianne Kohler-Barnard who sits on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. Asked if there were a revolution tomorrow, would the intelligence services know or would they have to go on X and follow it there, she says: “Well, I think if we can go by what happened in relation not only to the July riots two years ago, but also the burning of the trucks in KwaZulu Natal and Mpumalanga…they hadn’t a clue…I do not believe that there is any working together of the three intelligence agencies in terms of determining something like that.” As for the impunity with which organised crime syndicates operate, Kohler-Barnard says she has personally seen trucks with special cubicles behind the drivers to fit “five or six children tied up, drugged and taken out the country and sold”. She fumes: “…you just have to keep on asking where are the hundreds of millions going to in terms of these various entities that don’t seem to deliver when it comes to protecting South Africans from the worst of the worst. It is just not happening…” – Chris Steyn

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Relevant timestamps from the interview

00:09 – Introductions
00:47 – Dianne Kohler-Barnard on if there were a revolution tomorrow, would the intelligence services now or would they have to go on it and follow it
03:35 – What is the role of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence
08:18 – Lack of arrests regarding organised crime
11:46 – The complex relationship between organised crime syndicates, intelligence assets and corruption
15:01 – The upcoming general intelligence laws amendment bill
17:57 – What are we doing with intelligence provided by foreign intelligence agencies that could be credible
22:31 – Conclusions

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Highlights from the Interview

South Africa spends billions on its intelligence services, but more and more questions are being raised about the quality of intelligence being gathered.

BizNews speaks to Dianne Kohler-Barnard of the Democratic Alliance (DA).

She sits on the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

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Asked if there were a revolution tomorrow, would the intelligence services know or would they have to go on X and follow it there, she says: “Well, I think if we can go by what happened in relation not only to the July riots two years ago, but also the burning of the trucks in KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga, I think there were at least three provinces involved. And that happened in July and they hadn’t a clue. So I have very little belief. I just can’t understand how it happened, but I do not believe that there is any working together of the three intelligence agencies in terms of determining something like that.

“We have the personnel, we have huge amounts of money going in, but how did we have the riots without anyone knowing, being caught with their pants around their ankles? How do we have the burning of the trucks? Endless burning, destruction.

“And where are the arrests? I’ve certainly not heard of the big kingpins that (Police Minister) Bheki Cele was bragging about in terms of the July riots. No arrests made in terms of the trucks burned. The only arrest I know that was made was a gentleman who was actually on camera in the one truck. And I believe a private security company caught him.”

Kohler-Barnard points out that South African Police Service (SAPS) Crime Intelligence was performing very well until General Peter Jacobs was sidelined.

“…I thought Crime Intelligence was doing really well under General Peter Jacobs. I started to see that all the looting channels were being shut down; things were coming under control and the arrests were beginning…. And he was very strangely removed just before the July riots – and all sorts of charges were laid, not one of them ever held any water, and he’s now being dumped somewhere else altogether in the Secretariat or some division.

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“But since then, it’s been catastrophic. There’s been nothing. There’s been a complete lack of vision. I believe there’s political interference, bad management, and bad coordination.

“Crime Intelligence has just collapsed which is why you’ve got an increase now in cash-in-transit heists and the like. They were almost on top of those and those were going down; things were happening. And if you look at the latest crime stats, I think it speaks for itself: through the roof, through the roof. You know, in any other acceptable country, I think the Minister of Police would have fallen on his sword years ago.

“So billions of rands going into entities that just seem not to be effective. And certainly Crime Intelligence is absolutely one of them.”

As for the Ministry of State Security that was moved to the Presidency, Kohler-Barnard says: “…that ministry, it has a revolving door. The ministers rarely last more than one year, and off they go. They’re either, I mean, one is now working overseas, that was straight after the July riots. Others have been removed unceremoniously, especially ones who’ve really started to make a difference. The last one lasted a year. I haven’t even seen her in this position yet. So I don’t know that any of them have really come to grips with it, but the outcomes of the various commissions and panels, I think, explain everything about what’s gone wrong and what continues to go wrong within these various agencies.”

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Giving examples of the impunity with which organised crime syndicates are allowed to operate, Kohler-Barnard says: “I’ve personally seen trucks with special little cubby holes put behind, built in behind the driver – and then they put in tonnes of goods. And meanwhile, in that cubicle behind the drivers are five or six children tied up, drugged and taken out the country and sold. So these things are going on all the time and one just doesn’t see the success rate at all.

“People are smuggled in, goods are smuggled out and where is our intelligence on this? Absolutely nowhere.

“So it’s incredibly frustrating – and you just have to keep on asking where are the hundreds of millions going to in terms of these various entities that don’t seem to deliver when it comes to protecting South Africans from the worst of the worst. It is just not happening…

“And I’m sick to death of politicians playing politics instead of just doing the damn job.”