Sara Ramirez, of Grey’s Anatomy fame, made their debut as the non-binary bisexual stand-up comedian in the premiere episode, co-hosting a podcast featuring Carrie Bradshaw (Sarah Jessica Parker). “People were like, ‘Cool! Funny!’ Strong love for Che,” showrunner Michael Patrick King reflects, speaking with EW from his New York City apartment a day after the wrap party for season 2 in mid-April. But by Che’s stand-up comedy routine in episode 3, the character had become a cringey meme. And by the time Che had carnal relations with Miranda Hobbes (Cynthia Nixon) in Carrie’s apartment in episode 5 — an event that would shatter Miranda’s marriage with Steve (David Eigenberg) — Che became the most polarizing figure on the show.
King has his theories on why. “The minute we risked a personal or sexual affair, it became, ‘What is that character doing?'” he says of the shifting tone among viewers. “I thought that was really interesting, that people changed and it had nothing to do with the brilliant Sara Ramirez. We brought a new character in and blew up a relationship that they had invested in. Therefore, the new character is the Big Bad Wolf and Steve’s in the henhouse.”
And Just Like That… Season 2
Sara Ramirez as Che Diaz in ‘And Just Like That’ season 2
| Credit: Craig Blakenhorn/Max
Having gone through something similar with Grey’s Anatomy, Ramirez, who uses they/them pronouns, appears zen about the whole thing over the phone, speaking a couple weeks before And Just Like That returns for season 2 on June 22. “I think it’s inevitable that you’re gonna come across a little bit of it,” they say of the intense audience response. “But I can’t get wrapped up in that. It’s tempting for sure, but it doesn’t really serve my purpose as the actor telling this story. I think it’s really interesting to play a person who elicits such strong reactions and who can start much-needed conversations. If the story lines created major water-cooler moments after each episode, then we did our job.”
Heading into season 2, King and Ramirez were both eager to show viewers all the shades of Che that might’ve gotten lost amid the memes. Even before HBO officially confirmed a second season, they both sat down and talked through the role, hoping to bring more humanity to the role. “In order to do that, we felt it was necessary to have them pursue their pilot in Los Angeles, to see how a system like the Hollywood entertainment industry would impact a character like Che,” Ramirez says.
Miranda begins season 2 in L.A., trying to stay busy while Che devotes their time to developing a show inspired by their life. Tony Danza plays himself in And Just Like That, cast to portray Che’s TV dad in the proposed sitcom. King likens that plot arc for both Miranda and Che to “a lemon meringue pie. It’s so tart and sweet and wrong in a comedy way. And yet [it’s] really interesting to remove somebody from a group and put them on their own island with some other character. They’re both trying to grow or be happy — and it’s substantial, it’s enough.”
But it won’t be a permanent relocation. “They’re back in New York at some point,” King says. So does that mean the pilot fails? “Don’t worry, everybody, TV pilots are an iffy business,” he teases.
“It’s very much a ‘fish out of water’ type of experience,” says Ramirez, who saw the concept as a personal throwback, having lived in L.A. through many pilot seasons as a working actor before booking Grey’s Anatomy. “Miranda is experiencing a kind of second adolescence, as many of us do when we’re experiencing huge life changes. Che, as well, is kind of in their third adolescence,” Ramirez continues. “Miranda’s adolescence is related to her sexual orientation journey, Che’s is related to their relationship with fame. The continuation of how those two journeys meet and play and get tangled up in the context of a place like Los Angeles made a lot of sense to me. It creates more scenarios for each character to continue peeling back the layers of what is the truth underneath all of this.”
Photograph by Craig Blakenhorn/Max Cynthia Nixon, Sara Ramírez MAX And Just Like That… Season 2
Cynthia Nixon’s Miranda cuddles Sara Ramirez’s Che in ‘And Just Like That’ season 2
| Credit: Craig Blakenhorn/HBO Max
That was the goal with Che in season 2: removing the mask to show the real person underneath. “Che had a very performative quality in season 1,” Ramirez believes. “And so, in season 2, we get to see how Che continues to wrestle with that mask getting knocked down and having to deal with some true, difficult emotions underneath.”
Perhaps it was that performative quality that rubbed many viewers the wrong way. A particular scene that arrives further in the new season seems to comment on a lot of the viewer feedback, which asserted that Che felt fake, inauthentic, and, yes, performative.
King actually believes the response to Che was as much about the fictional comic as it was about Miranda. “In my opinion, a lot of people rewrote Miranda in their heads versus what I wrote for Miranda in the series,” explains the longtime Sex and the City producer, who pins that issue partially on the ubiquitous syndication of the original show. After Sex and the City wrapped up in 2004, the HBO dramedy began airing on broadcast networks — often in marathon form and often on channels where “all the really difficult stuff” (as King puts it) was cut or censored for mainstream viewers.
“It was kind of like Friends and the City. Every time Samantha opened her mouth, they would cut to a commercial,” King jokes of Kim Cattrall’s sex-positive powerhouse. “So the idea of the ugly underside that the show was on HBO, particularly with Miranda, was forgotten. She was an anarchist. She was always complaining about how she has to behave in society, and why single people have to be a certain way. Basically, Steve had to beg her to marry him. She begrudgingly took a diamond. She was pregnant and she got married. She didn’t want to go to Brooklyn. She was dragged into that. He cheated on her in the movie. Everybody forgot that and created, ‘Miranda’s me and I’m being judged.’ And it isn’t. Miranda was unsatisfied as a single girl and she was unsatisfied as a married woman.”
King says he knew introducing Che as a new love for Miranda “was gonna be trouble.” But now he welcomes the discourse. “It means we didn’t do the same thing,” he says. “If we had tried to do Sex and the City now without any of the changes we made, it wouldn’t have been current in my mind. It wouldn’t have been anything to argue about. There wouldn’t have been a change to debate.”
And Just Like That… Season 2
Cynthia Nixon and Sara Ramirez in ‘And Just Like That’ season 2
| Credit: Craig Blakenhorn/Max
Ramirez makes a point to say they are “actually nothing like Che Diaz.” It may seem silly to voice aloud, but they’ve seen how the And Just Like That audience conflates the role with the actor behind it. Some even speak about Che as if they are a real person, which fascinates Ramirez. The actor is far more of an introvert than the “self-identified narcissist” they often joke is Che. “It was absolutely exhausting to bring this person to life,” Ramirez admits. “I had to stay in a bit of an extroverted mode in order to do that. So the efforts that it took to bring this character forth makes me feel really proud of what I’ve been able to deliver.”
Ramirez feels the same way about the discourse as King: “I love that people have passionate opinions, that Che struck a nerve.” Regardless of the reasons why Che struck that nerve, the actor believes they’re not there to control conversations. “I’m here to elicit them,” they say. “Che Diaz is such a beautiful reminder to me, to you, to all of us, that LGBTQIA+ people don’t have to be perfect for us to respect their humanity. Not everyone is likable in every community. One non-binary character does not represent all non-binary people.”
And Just Like That season 2 is premiering during LGBTQ Pride Month, and Ramirez is taking advantage of the attention on Che to highlight the real experiences within the community. “If we are concerned enough about one non-binary representation to write articles and make posts and be very passionate in how we show up about it, my question is: How are people showing up for the health and wellbeing of real queer people — Black and brown, trans and non-binary people — who might be struggling just to exist right now?” they assert. “If we’re gonna spend this much time and energy getting riled up about a fictional non-binary character, I ask that people translate that energy.”
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